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Caterpie will eventually outclass them all as the meta evolves.

+Marutan Ray Communal channel.

+Johny Diala What a heap of horseshit.The 1948 assault by Israeli terrorists, armed with tanks and artillery caused the compulsory expulsion 650,000 civilians from Galilee after a campaign of village massacre and gang rape.650,000 forced from their homes and never allowed to return - plus an uncounted number of civilians slaughtered and bulldozed into grave pits (just like those at Babi Yar and other diverse places during the 3rd Reich)And the racial theories which operated under the Nazis and under the Israeli occupation are the same - Certain people aren't actually 'human' eg The Goyim.The untermensch don't have the same rights as human beings (the ubermensch).This is the logic - even now - of Israel's behaviour.Deir Yassin was the public face of a much larger single event. They were the men selected to be spared from the outright massacre for the express purpose of being lynched in cold blood before a baying mob of lunatics. 

Let's not forget that one of the wars in which Israel was at least correct in fighting for was the 1948 Arab-Israeli war when the Arabs did the perpetration of such hostility and tensions (and yeah, I know that Deir Yassin was to blame by Irgun and Menachem Begin, but that was one massacre).It was actually the only war. The 1956, 1967, 1973, and 1982 wars were totally or partially the result of Israeli intransigence, strategic aims attained through aggression, or desire for expansion. Also, the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed in 1948. It was far from isolated. state of Israel is far more progressive, secular, and rational than IslamistsHow a state behaves internally has little to do with how it behaves externally. nations' dictators far worse than America'sWhy do they exist, though? That's the fundamental question. Other Muslim states, like Indonesia, for example, are democratic. Why? It's because the US has little interest with them. The Arab spring, also, has proved that Arab-Muslims want democracy and are tired of being the victims of repressive regimes. Saddam HusseinSupported by the US in Iraq-Iran warthe Iranian mullah asshole ayatollahsThe CIA facilitated a coup in 1953 which overthrew the democratically elected leader of Iran. Taliban or Al-QaedaCreated by the CIA during the Afghan-Soviet war. how the Jewish state surrounded by the enemiesWhich enemies? Egypt made peace with Israel in 1979, and particularly now that Sisi is president, is a Zionist puppet state.; controlling the Rafa crossing and besieging Gaza. Israel made peace with Jordan in 1994. Saudi Arabia and Iraq aren't major players; the latter is a US ally. Syria is embroiled in a civil war. Lebanon, with Hezbollah, is the only serious issue, and it has been relatively dormant since 2006. 

He doesn't live under Shara Law you fucking moron. I'd prefer to let the Muslims run wild in their own respective hellholes. Leave them alone. If they don't leave you alone. Then that's when you start bombing the hell out of them.Not the other way around. As for Israel. I hope to fuck they fall. They got us into all these goddamn wars in the first place. They are a blight on mankind. And that rat piece of shit Bernie Sanders. What a slimeball.

Israel is a problem for everyone. The whole world. It needs to be dismantled. The progressives you talk about are just paid off. Like most of the countries' politicians are paid off. If you don't support Israel in the US. Your career as a politician goes nowhere.

+trev moffattGaza is a side show to rally the reactionary hard right in Israel to support imperialism and xenophobia by invoking the specter of Hamas as if they represented all Palestinians.knock it off with the obfuscations. Israel wants to annex the West BankI never obfuscated that, I'm not obfuscating anything, in fact I said in the last comment that Hamas isn't capable of deterring them from doing so.Which is illegalYes it is, which is why Israel has to be cautious about how they do it, so that they don't risk losing the aid and support they rely on.its laughable how the West places sanctions on Russia for grabbing UkraineYes it is, the hypocrisy is beyond absurd, especially when considering how unequal the situations are. In Ukraine, Russia has much more legitimate cause to be there.Regardless, this is all beside the point. Break out of this small minded false dichotomy between Zionists and Hamas for a moment.

+Socialist Skeptic Yeah well, that's always the case. The Left and the Right fight together - then turn on each other. But since the end of the Cold War - Islamic Fundamentalism was bound to take over. Islamic government was the pre communist state of the Middle East - which without communism its returning back to. However that doesn't change the fact that Israel is settling the West Bank - building more and more settlements.Gaza is probably a sideshow to divert from the settlement building in the West Bank.  So knock it off with the obfuscations. Israel wants to annex the West Bank. Which is illegal under international law. I mean its laughable how the West places sanctions on Russia for grabbing Ukraine - whilst we give Israel free- gratis to keep pushing settlers into the West Bank. That's the end-game that Zionists are always obscuring. They've been doing it since the Balfour agreement - promising one thing whilst all the time building settlements. It'll carry on until the Jews are the majority - and then that's that the West Bank joins Israel.

+trev moffattThey don't seem very capable of deterring settlement, and if Israel wanted Gaza they could easily take the whole thing. Hamas would pose little challenge. The bigger challenge for Israel would be finding a way to do it and finding a way to handle the population without risking the aid and support of other nations.Israel leaves Gaza "intact" in relative terms for three main reasons. One, the cost of officially taking it would outweigh the benefits. Two, much of Israel's leadership benefits from the current situation, and uses Hamas as a boogyman and unwitting pawn in their own political schemes (Hamas appears to do the same). Three, Gaza functions unofficially as an open air concentration camp, and I might indulge a plausible conspiracy theory, it can easily function as a place where problematic Palestinians can be disappeared to without raising too many questions.its probably the case that the Palestinian cause is lost. So why not go down fighting?Because Hamas is not Palestine, Hamas is a brutal theocratic regime that murders Palestinians and openly supports genocide. The system they want to establish is a theocratic caliphate with a ruling class. So why support them when you know their cause is lost and know they oppose everything we stand for? They have undermined any other possibility for resistance, by becoming the banner for it they've made it impossible to grow and impossible to succeed.The PalestiniansHamas Murders the Palestinians. If Israel were out of the way, one of the first things Hamas would do would be to round up Palestinian factions and ethnicities they oppose and massacre them.

+Socialist Skeptic Well they might put off Jews from settling in the West Bank.The stated aim of Israel is to force Gaza and the West Bank apart. They know they can't incorporate both Gaza and the West Bank into a greater Israel because then Israel would become a bi-national state - something like Lebanon. So they let Gaza become an independent but heavily controlled state, whilst they intend to annex the West Bank proper. The idea is to flood the West Bank with settlers - until the Jews outnumber Arabs 11 to 1.Hamas know this is the Israeli agenda, so they are attempting to keep the common struggle between the West Bank and Gaza alive.Besides, its probably the case that the Palestinian cause is lost. So why not go down fighting? - just like the Jews did with the Romans. The Palestinians will have their place in history. They're not gonna go down without a fight. For the Arabs - the shame is not in losing, its in never having fought back. Honour being everything. 

+trev moffatt treating PalestineHamas is not Palestine, Hamas is a brutal theocratic regime that controls part of Gaza, and Hamas murders Palestinians over trivial offenses to their theocratic ideology.fighting for national survivalIn the absence of Israel Hamas would wage war against other Palestinian factions and seek to exterminate them. Many Palestinians do not support Hamas and would not voluntarily submit to being ruled by Hamas. Hamas murders Palestinians.Palestine does not have to choose between two murderous entities bent on their enslavement or destruction, further Hamas has no feasible way of ever defeating Israel in armed struggle, so supporting them is not only a contradiction against all communist values, it's also pointless.Could be Hamas have the right strategyTheir strategy is an abysmal failure, with their inferior numbers, and limited access to resources and technology, they have no means whatsoever of ever winning a military struggle without the ability to recruit from among the ranks of their enemies, or otherwise acquire outside intervention on their behalf, and they've alienated virtually anyone who even might consider coming to their aid.Merely being associated with them is toxic, and undermines efforts of anyone who attempts to draw sympathies on behalf of the Palestinian struggle or educate people about Israeli crimes. The best Hamas can ever hope for is to be used as pawns in some other nation's scheme and then be discarded under favorable conditions. They are incapable of ever building a successful revolution because they are incapable of winning hearts and minds, and that's an ability every successful revolution against a superior force must have.I refuse to be part of this absurd false dichotomy, erroneous conflation, and underdog fallacy that plagues a certain guilt ridden segment of first world middle class liberals with pseudo-marxist inklings on facebook.

+Socialist Skeptic i think you are treating Palestine like its in a normal situation. When you are fighting for national survival - things get ugly. Turn the tables and imagine how Israel would act in the same situation. They lose a few people and all hell is unleashed.I don't agree with Hamas tactics; they are religious extremists. I prefer Fatah. But is the West Bank getting any better treatment for its more peaceful approach?Still the settlements are built. Still they are occupied,Could be Hamas have the right strategy. The world is noticing them. Pressure is bearing down on Israel.  

+trev moffatt Same things happened in occupied IrelandWhat's your point though?Its imperialist arrogance not to recognize PalestiniansHamas is not Palestinians, Hamas is a brutal theocratic regime that openly calls for genocide and murders it's own citizens over minor infractions of their theocratic law.

+Socialist Skeptic that happens in occupied territories. Same things happened in occupied Ireland. . Its imperialist arrogance not to recognize Palestinians as resistance fighters. Every country is made up of Left and Right. In war Left and Right join forces to defeat the common enemy.E.G, Mao joined forces with the Nationalists to see off the Japanese. Plus there's Israel itself, where Zionists and Communists came together to form Israel 

+trev moffatt How do you hope to reign in the extremists in that situation?Ideally by neutralizing the situation. And I agree with what you said about Israel's extremism. However, that's beside the point, the point is that Hamas doesn't deserve the support of any communist because they're right wing totalitarian theocrats who's vision of the future is a caliphate with a ruling class. Besides which they call for genocide, and they also oppress the people of Gaza. Hamas executes Palestinians for minor "crimes" that wouldn't even be considered crimes by reasonable people.

+Socialist Skeptic In extreme situations - the extremists take over. Wrong or right that's just how it goes. When you are living in a war-torn state placed under siege - that's an extreme situation. How do you hope to reign in the extremists in that situation? No normal political discourse is possible.In the West in the wake of 911 to criticize the troops was tantamount to treason. In such situations you keep your head down.Israel's extremism makes Hamas inevitable.   

+trev moffattHamas is not Palestine and Hamas is not the Palestinian people.

+Socialist Skeptic Wouldn't say all resistance to imperialism is just. I mean you might say American slavers were resisting imperialism when they seceded from the union. Same with the Boers when they fought against British imperialism.But the Palestinians are not victims of imperialists. They are victims of ethnic cleansers, settlers, religious extremists. Israel/ Palestine is ultimately a race war - with the end-game of rubbing the Palestinian nation from the map.In that situation anything goes, you're literally fighting for national survival. Its not just a case of a great power wanting to own everything in your country - its the case of a great power trying to destroy your country.    Something like what Hitler had planned for Poland. Lebensraum for the good German Volk. The Poles having their homes and farms taken and given to Germans. Then the Poles were crammed into a designated area in the South of the Country. Where Hitler planned to starve them to death  

+Erich Honecker any resistance to imperialism is justEvery act of resistance is not equal, and it is never just, for instance, to kill a child. And Hamas are not actually "anti-imperialist" they just happen to be the underdogs in a fight against Western Imperialists. Ideologically they are theocratic imperialists who merely lack the power to fulfill their vision of a caliphate, besides which they brutally suppress their own people and openly call for genocide which no communist should ever support.

But the PLFP fights for them.....

+trev moffattI hadn't thought of that but you have a point, Israel used to be very important to western imperial interests but now it's hardly even worth seeing as an outpost.

+Socialist Skeptic Western Liberals are always doing deals with reactionaries. Ultimately reactionaries can be incorporated into capital - whereas communists and socialists can't. Reactionaries for the most part embracing the market.  Remember classical Liberals and reactionaries were the two main ideologies before the advent of communism, socialism and social democracy.And since the end of the Cold War I think we're returning to the old phony dichotomy between Liberal capitalists and reactionary capitalists. And lest we forget - Mohamed was a business man.And like you say, I've also noticed Hamas getting a better press than the PLO ever did. Never known Israel come under so much Western criticism. Which might speak to the Israel/Palestinian conflict in the Cold War being part of a wider ideological battle - with the Soviets backing Syria, Egypt and the PLO - and the West backing Israel and the Gulf States What's more, with Saddam and Gadaffi gone and the Assad clan seriously wounded - the need for Israel as an anti-socialist bulwark is now surplus to requirements.  In fact Israel is becoming a pain the ass, lousing up relations with our new allies in the region.

+trev moffattI've noticed that in regards to reactionary forces like Hamas, even though Western Countries condemn them they implicitly tolerate and in some instances actively support them.When action is taken against them, it's more like an assertion of dominance, or provoking a response that they know will have no impact on the ruling class and often be useful to their cause.I think you're right that a new international movement is needed and that a communist vanguard is needed. Groups like Hamas have no revolutionary potential but as Lenin wrote (I believe in "Left-Wing" Communism: An Infantile Disorder") reactionaries can be educated into revolutionaries. That requires propaganda though, and a means by which to distribute it without being assassinated by the CIA or beheaded by an Islamist theocrat.

+Socialist Skeptic But your point raises a wider question - far more important than just the Palestinian resistance. In that, what's happened to the Left in this conflict or, for that matter,in the Arab world more generally? Why are reactionaries dominating the anti-imperialist anti-Western agenda? Which I think speaks to the absence of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact.Islamic Fundamentalism has support in Qatar, S Arabia. Iran - whereas the international Left has no nerve centre, no base of operations. All we have now is a bunch of handwringing soft-Lefties and anarchists with no real coordination. Which I think demonstrates that the end of the Soviet Union was a colossal set-back for the international Left.   And the Left won't get back in the game unless a large significant country takes up the communist vanguard.   

+Socialist Skeptic Every rocket that's fired into Israel - means less Jews willing to settle in Palestine. That's why the Zionists get so irate about these pesky missiles - not because of the damage they inflict but rather for the image they send to Jews in the diaspora. E.g. Welcome to Israel - sirens, bomb shelters, and gas-masks. On second thoughts, better stay in Florida.Resistance is not pretty, it usually comes down to terrorizing settlers, executing collaborators, and grim psychological warfare like lopping heads off.Given most Westerners haven't been occupied for a very long time, they've forgot what resistance is all about. For instance. in occupied France. if a woman was seen sharing a cigarette with a German soldier - the order was to execute her on sight.  

+trev moffattIf Hamas were a serious fighting force capable of doing anything worthwhile they'd be worth our interest and if they weren't a bunch of genocidal theocrats every bit as bad as the Saudis they'd be worth supporting, but as they are, they're more like controlled opposition, they do more harm than good and have no potential of ever doing anything worthy of communist support.

+Socialist Skeptic This is a case of national survival not just common or garden imperialism. In occupied China, Jiang Kai Shek and Mao briefly put their differences aside to take on the Japanese. In occupied France, the Maquis was made up of both Catholic Nationalists and Communists. Sure if the USSR and E Germany were still around to support the PLO - we'd have the luxury of ignoring Hamas, but, alas, those days are long gone.

+trev moffattSympathizing with Palestinians and Supporting Hamas are not the same thing, Hamas is a minority even in Gaza.Considering an absurd analogy for a moment, if the UK were occupied and over half the population were crammed into Wessex to be starved and bombed, if a group like the BNP stood up and started randomly lobbing rockets at the other side , you could support the people of Wessex without agreeing with the right winged fascists in the BNP.

Suppose there is a danger in supporting reactionaries in the name of anti-imperialism. I mean Hitler might have been judged anti-imperialist in the 1930s. So could the Japanese Emperor . However, its just hard not to sympathize with the Palestinians - whatever their ideology. Its a little like dissing Native Americans for scalping White settlers.

What about when Hamas executes Gazans for possessing an ounce of weed? And Hamas makes no distinction between soldier and civilian, their tactics are wholly ineffective, and if the people of Gaza weren't so oppressed by Israel and hopeless they'd throw Hamas out themselves.

In the word of Ben Gurion:"If a Palestinian commit a terrorist attack lets not fool ourselves we all know that is just half the story."

+oldickeastman pro-anti-genocidePro Hamas isn't Pro-Anti-Genocide.Does that meanNo, you've presented a false dichotomy.Condemnation of Hamas does not equal support of Israeli policies.

Why doesn't this guy ever mention geoengineering as the cause of this weather?

Fuck a Jesus when science is telling you exactly what to expect.

Amen