women, representation, and Marvel | #fandomforward
[CC] I've made this video to jump in on a conversation Morgan started about women in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Please check out her video, and the ...
I wanna start by saying that I completely agree with your points about
needing more positive female representation in mainstream media. I love
seeing female characters get represented. But I really don't understand why
Marvel, specifically Marvel Studios, gets this flak. So I'm gonna represent
the fanboy opinion.
The simple fact that we're saying we want more female representation in
Marvel, instead of saying the female characters in the MCU suck, is proof
enough that Marvel is definitely doing some things right. If I had to stake
my name I'd say Disney's two most popular properties, Star Wars and Marvel,
being so popular are representing women best today. Rey and Black Widow are
not only hands my two favorite female characters, they're two of my
favorite heroes period. That we want a solo Black Widow film, is because we
know how awesome she is. And that's because Marvel has done such a great
job with her so far. It's Marvel's hard work that's created the demand for
a Black Widow movie. I wanna see a video about why DC is gonna have 7 guys
and 1 girl in the JL movies! Let's talk about that why don't we?
Forget DC, compare Marvel to other popular properties, Transformers, Star
Trek, TMNT and the X-Men movies. I would pick Pepper Potts, Jane Foster and
Peggy Carter over Megan Fox or Uhura any day of the week. If nothing else,
they're at least more likable. Also, looking at it from another
perspective, if indeed they are 'sidekicks' then I always cared more about
the three of them than I ever did for another popular 'sidekick', Peeta. As
for Fox, I'll never forgive them for what they did to my second and third
favorite X-Men (after Cyclops) Emma Frost and Kitty Pryde. If you haven't
read the comics then you probably wouldn't understand what Fox has
squandered. Well if you wanna bring up Mystique, well Black Widow always
rocked more. After all, nobody's really asking for a Mystique solo film.
I'm not blind to the fact that for every female there's hero, there'a about
five other guys. I know that. But at least they're great. I look forward to
see more Scarlet Witch. I'm excited that all this is soon going to change
once 'Captain Marvel' and 'Ant-Man and the Wasp' come out. I would love to
see the day when an 'A-Force' movie is announced. I totally agree that
there needs to be more female characters and in meaningful roles. Please at
least acknowledge the great things that Marvel has accomplished instead of
giving them smack about something they do a much better job of than the
others in the first place. Credit where credit's due, that's all I'm
saying.
Hey Marines! Thank you so much for your reply! I'm sorry if I sounded too hyphy in my defense. I was simply pointing out that Marvel, specifically Marvel Studios and not Fox, were definitely winning out, as you probably agreed, on the quality debate. The ladies that the MCU do have are great characters. That said, I hope Fox will turn things around with Apocalypse.As I mentioned in my comment, I totally agree with pretty much everything that you said. We need more women in Marvel. As I also mentioned, the future is looking good. If you look at the new heroes that are going to be introduced - Doctor Strange, Black Panther, The Wasp, Captain Marvel and (if the Inhumans movie happens) Black Bolt and Medusa. That's a decent split. So Marvel Studios are clearly listening. I don't think it's going to be too long when more female than male heroes and characters are being introduced. There are still many great characters that haven't been introduced yet like Hawkeye Kate Bishop, Spider-Woman and my personal favorite, the new Thor. I'm optimistic. Once again, thank you so much for replying, it's always great to talk about these issues.
+Fahim Ahmed Thank you for watching and for your comment! I started my video with a discussion about how progress is a thing that can be acknowledged without discounting the arguments for where we still need to go. Marvel IS doing some things right... but women are still underrepresented in the MCU. This video could've been about Disney, or DC or any number of franchises and many of the arguments would've stayed the same. The fact is that the original video spoke about Marvel coming from a place of fandom. She loves Marvel (and X-Men in particular), so she spoke about what she loved and what she knew. I picked up the conversation from there. So it is "flak" in a sense that we are looking critically at something Marvel is doing, but it is borne out of a place where fans, people who invest time and money into Marvel, would like to see something they appreciate improve. To point elsewhere is to minimize that and to again distract from the argument at hand. If someone else who loves DC wants to talk about DC, that would be a valid argument as well and I wouldn't go into those comments and say, "let's not talk about DC. Let's talk about how women are portrayed and treated in the porn industry." What's the point of that and how is it useful? If someone wanted to compare studies and franchises and decide who was doing under representation best, well, I guess that could also be a thing you do. That wasn't this video. Again, I would caution the arguments that contain "but at least." This is not looking for at least. This is looking for what needs to be improved. That the one female that is portrayed is portrayed well (in your opinion) still doesn't answer any of these questions: Why should we be satisfied for one female for every five males? Why can't we ask for more representation? What does it say about how society views females that means that we should be looking on the bright side of a handful of female characters? Why should I have to credit a studio for doing the bare minimum of including one important, though not usually main, female character in a movie? Why is asking for more female characters considered talking smack about a very successful and very rich movie studio? Why, when there are tons and tons and tons of other materials out there singing the praises of Marvel, do I HAVE TO give them credit when I feel they need to fix certain things? I appreciate your fan view and your desire to protect the studio, but I don't think they need protection from me or anyone else involved in this conversation. They'd do better to listen. And to realize that you can both be a fan of a thing and critical of it's more problematic aspects. I think the best criticisms, in fact, are from people who want to feel good about the investment they make. Yes, Marvel may be leading the pack here, but that means the pressure is on THEM to improve and not to isolate fans with their portrayals or under representation of women.
Yes yes yes - I found this a FANTASTIC video. I love thinking about female
representation in the MCU because there are so many different sides to look
at. So marvel audiences are apparently 46% female - which means that you
could argue that the sexualisation of characters like Black Widow is
actually an empowered thing. You can be sexy AND a hero AND have a
personality. I think Scarlet Witch isn't too sexualised, either. And yes,
pretty much all of the female actors in the MCU are what society deems
"attractive", but I think the men are too.
I get a kick out of Captain America being so god damn beautiful - on the
inside and out, and I hope audience members who are viewing Black Widow as
sexy don't JUST see her as a sexy.
+snazzydarcyreads Thank you so much! That's the important distinction. It isn't that the characters cannot be sexy. This is still Hollywood, home of the attractive. It really starts to be a problem when SEXY is ever shown as the main thing. I don't think that happens for Black Widow per se, until you look at advertisements and things, where it's clear she's being used for the male gaze. I think the reason that it doesn't always come off as empowerment is the fact that these are women in male-centric stories.
I actually wonder if Jane and Pepper would be used more throughout the MCU
if they weren't played by Gwyneth Paltrow and Natalie Portman, since they
both come with high salaries and Marvel has made it clear that they are
willing to change or omit characters in order to spend their money
elsewhere. (re: Edward Norton replaced by Mark Ruffalo and Terrence Howard
replaced by Don Cheadle.)
+mynameismarines Yeah, I think they're real problem lies in not casting unknowns for the movies, because they're female characters on TV and Netflix (which is also a part of the MCU) are much better developed and utilized. With the exception of her being the only female Avenger (hopefully, they'll use Elizabeth Olsen as much now that they have Scarlet Witch), I've never seen that much of a problem with how they've portrayed Black Widow in the MCU, 'cause from what I've read of the comics, it all seems pretty in character for her. My biggest gripe was when she was suddenly turned into a love interest for Banner in Age of Ultron, when there was absolutely now previous intention anywhere else. That entire plot line, to me at least, seems like the most out of character thing they've had her do.Although, I will forever love the Chrises (Evans and Hemsworth) for taking the sexists questions that Scarlett Johansson gets asked in interviews and on panels.
+claudi.day This is an interesting double edged sword. Someone else in these comments brought up the point of having a smaller actress pool to work with for these movies and then the idea that Marvel isn't into casting unknowns. So they don't cast unknowns because they won't get the big name pull, but then they are dealing with huge salaries that may be limiting how they use the women they do have. BIG SIGH.
Thank you for this video and for addressing such important issues! I
believe its vital that we are aware of gender inequality (including
representation of women in books and films etc) not despite the progress
that has been made but because of it. That sounds weird, I know, but what I
mean is that people have the tendency to lay back and assume that 'legal
equality' also means 'factual equality'. Like: women have the right to be
elected to congress, so why are you still complaining? Inequality issues
today are (mostly) not anymore about equal rights but about equal rights
being reflected in reality. And as long as women (and minorities for that
matter) are under-represented in certain positions in real life and in
films and media, there is still a lot to be done.
+mynameismarinesLegalistic fallacy, I will remember that, thank you! And absolutely agree with you re importance of media representation. It can either confirm and strengthen gender steroetypes or set new examples which help to see the gender role differently and therefore encourage change.
+Britta Böhler Beautifully said. This is something that is talked about when you study/consider racism in society. It's called legalistic fallacy and it basically assumes that abolishing of racists laws lead to abolishing racism at large. And that concept applies to any underrepresented or discriminated against group. I think this is another reason that media is important. It serves as a sort of barometer for cultural and societal ideas, values and norms. It isn't "normal" quite yet to see as many women saving the world as men, to see them as heading their own stories and independent of the plot of men. That to me is both indicative of a bigger, structural problem and a piece of what continues to support the structure.
I agree whole heartedly! This reminds me also about a blog post I did about
Rey being the main character in the new Star Wars film but you couldn't
find a single toy with her in it. The only thing I found was a very small
Lego set. Meanwhile everyone else from the movie who was male and NOT the
main character had a ton of toys and memorabilia. I think that's a disgrace
and it was discovered that the toy companies themselves felt that little
boys wouldn't play with any female character toys but what about the little
girls that like Star Wars?! I know it's not marvel but both are owned by
Disney so it's a huge problem that really may seem like something small to
others but it's a smaller part of a much bigger picture of how women are
treated all over the world. Okay rant over lol
I'm not even a fan of Marvel, but this is clearly an issue that is relevant
across all media. There's this perception that women can be interested in
male-centric media while men can't be interested in/relate to
female-centric media. Apparently, for some people, adding more women to
these stories runs the risk of making it unrelateable to men or something.
I'll never understand why some people are so stubborn that they refuse to
relate to anyone not exactly like them.
+Literally Tara That idea that adding women would somehow make the movies less successful or cheapen them just points back to the misogynistic ideas that keep women out of film in the first place. And the not-so-funny thing is that misogynists will ask why women can't just relate to the male superheroes and be satisfied with it? God forbid we turn that logic around and ask them why they wouldn't be able to relate to some women superheroes on screen...