It is a modern religion, whos beliefs and practices are considered bizarre
by larger society. I.E. history of polygamy, mixing masonic rituals,
clothing and oathes with "sacred" temple ceremonies, no historical data,
artifacts and geographical location to support the Book of Mormon. Belief
that a man ("author and proprietor") wrote the book while looking at rocks
in a hat. This same man claimed God commanded him into polygamy, but only
after his wife Emma caught him in the act. A few reasons!
Because mormonism is a cult they have a mormon jesus they don't worship the
REAL Jesus Christ the son of God the mormons were invented by joseph smith
to gain money power and women, and brigham young another mormon scumbag who
causes so many innocent people to be killed brigham young is known as the
1800s version of saddam huessain>> Jesus Christ would of NEVER done what
those clowns joseph smith and brigham young did
16242T, thanks for taking the time to watch those parts of the talk. Your
open mind leads to another question. Your earlier comments show a negative
perception of Sandel's goals and methods. Phrases like "the sport of
working the crowd" and "smooth-talking Harvard speak" show that you saw
these as efforts to persuade you against your conscience. After seeing more
of the full video, do you find it changed your perception of Sandel's
methods? Does he still seem to "work the crowd," for example?
18.00 a turkish and a moroccan girl wanted to prevent me to take a seat in
the bus right in front of them. I needed to point to the other seats beïng
completely filled untill they reluctantly tolerated me to sit. Not without
calling me mean names. 18.30 the young women stepped out and in came some
black women who did not speak as normal people but merely shouted to
eachother the whole half hour that i still was on the bus. Alright i can be
wrong about the exact times but this truly happened.
@qqqq1920 you don't even live here and im sure youve gathered your info on
the american health system from the media, well im letting you know as
someone who IS a part of this country, all our people who are not capable
of paying for doctors visits and dentistry get it for free paid by
government, they also provide help with food and shelter, so long as you
are poor and really need the help. also most people are of some kind of
faith so your comment on the devil...just ridiculous. dont hate
Eirefrance, thanks for answering, but I was already aware of the
information given in the video. Now I seek to learn what you conclude from
this information. For example, does it seem to you that Michael Sandel is
promoting this idea? Do you include him in your opening assessment of it as
the idea of a "pig"? Or is it only Gary Becker you would label in this way?
Or am I misunderstanding you entirely? Please feel free to correct any
mistaken ideas I might have about what you've said and why.
A day in Antwerpen, 15.00 pm. sitting in a café next to a group of
moroccans i overheared their conversation about the stupid belgians ( who
nevertheless offered their hospitality to them. 16.00 A young foreign girl
tried twice to spit on me from a balcony. When i looked at her she put out
her tongue. 17.00 Hurrying up the subway escalator and putting my hands in
my pockets for preventing my possesions to fall out a latin women called
"sopa" (homosexual though i'm not) from behind my back.
16242T, thanks for your reply. When you say "the entire portion on this
subject," which portion do mean? (The Fora site numbers the segments gives
each a title.) I'm guessing you watched 07, "Recent Proposals to Use
Markets to Solve Social Problems," and maybe 08, "Using the Market to
Allocate Refugees Debate." Again, please correct me if I've guessed wrong.
Did you get the impression Michael Sandel advocates these ideas himself?
Thanks again for helping me to understand your point of view.
Chopin65, thanks for clarifying what you meant. Judging by the full length
talk on Fora's site, I am not sure neutral is the most accurate word for
the speaker. His goal seems to be helping his audience think clearly about
all the issues raised by this type of policy proposal. Many debaters try to
persuade listeners against an idea by making it seem weaker than it really
is. Sandel seems to be trying to present both sides of the argument in
their strongest form, and then see which one wins.
Well the issue w/ letting refugees pay for citizenship means that
technically military dictators will be allowed in over people who "work for
their pay". You have to assume free markets even exist in those parts of
the world anyways. Not to mention prices for labor would skyrocket due to
everyone wanting in so badly. Crime would rise and war would escalate in
other parts of the world. Only stable regions could ever make this work.
And they arent in places that have many refugees anyways.
Sandel's proposal sets up a straw man. It is not free market because force
is used to set quotas for acceptance of refugees. The free market, though,
is based on voluntary exchange. No one is forced to do anything, as long as
no rights are being violated. But there is no right to immigration. The US
already sells citizenship. There is a fee. But the fee should cover only
the costs of the INS, and the INS should no be subsidized by the IRS. This
will result in higher fees, but not $100K.
No group is less likely to be able to come up with the enormous sum of
money needed to meet this demand than a persecuted group, who are probably
denied economic access as much as anything else. Except, of course, for the
already wealthy, a group that "free market economists" spend a lot of time
propping up. So, there; Gary Becker, to the degree that Sandel presents his
ideas, is a promoting more of the anti-human, pro-greed bullshit that has
fucked us for 30 years. In short, a pig.
Freesk8, thanks for answering. To answer your question, I'm not sure my
views include anything that can be called a position on immigration and
immigration fees. I'm not defending the idea you label "Sandel's proposal,"
if that's what you mean. What I seek to know is why so many people think
Sandel is promoting the ideas he describes in this talk. It's clear to me
that he is not. Why such a difference of perception? That's the question
that interests me. Thanks again for your help.
16242T, thanks for explaining your views and perceptions. It's interesting
to see how such impressions are formed. When I say your concerns are
addressed in Sandel's talk, it is mostly in segment 11, "Arguments For and
Against Markets." Will it change your mind about the issues being
discussed? Probably not, but it might give you a different impression of
what Sandel is trying to do. If you decide to watch it, I would be
interested to learn your opinion about it.
Blackiron60, thanks for answering. I appreciate your taking the time to
explain your point of view clearly. I hope you are willing to help me
understand your thoughts a bit better. Did it seem to you that the speaker
in this video is promoting the idea that a "free market" approach would be
the best way to handle immigration issues and refugees? Did it seem to you
that he would promote a "free market" approach to every social problem?
Thanks again for your help.
@SovereignStatesman I can guarantee you you don't even know when or how the
term came about so let me fill you in. The term was coined during the Cold
War. First world being the western democracies, 2nd world being the
socialist block, the rest of the world being the 3rd world. The term was
not coined to reflect levels of economic development sir. Do some reading
but I'm sure that would be too much to ask of you..typical of the ugly
American.
The market for coyotes is created by making it illegal and creating huge
bureaucratic obstacles for peaceful people to cross borders legally. If we
eliminated the bad immigration laws, and instead used immigration fees to
cover the costs of the INS, there would be no coyotes. I do not think that
what the coyotes, or the illegal immigrants are doing is immoral. It is
only illegal because of bad laws that deserve to be broken.
Freesk8, you mention "Sandel's proposal," but all the details you mention
are from proposals put forward by other people, such as Gary Becker. This
gives me the impression that you did not watch the full length video linked
in the sidebar, only the short clip here on YouTube. Please correct me if
this is a mistaken impression. Thanks in advance for helping me to better
understand how you formed your opinion on this matter.
Why would i go to the us? Your living standards are shit compared to where
i live, and the people are generally dumber so id rather stay here. And if
you think my english writing abilities are reflected on youtube, or even
should be, your suprisingly stupid :) And even if i wanted to get a job in
america i dont think that will be such a challenge, being outcompeted by
american students is really the least of my worries.
Gary Becker as a Nobel prize-winning economist who revolutionized social
economics, applied price theory to immigration and came to this conclusion.
He is personally in favor of free immigration if we had no welfare state.
It is demagoguery to suggest that this proposals are immoral. I invite you
all to take a consequentialist, utilitarian approach and take a look at the
economic arguments behind his proposals.