man buddy, you guys up there at red neck turbines got balls of steel, i
cant believe you sat beside it while it lights off, mind you i guess it is
not unlike hitting the ignitor box with a hammer LOL, that ESN sounds
familiar though!!!!!!
I read somewhere that Canadian law mandates AgentJayZ be present whenever a
jet engine is started in a test cell. Some do claim he just appears out of
thin jet wash...
Avon Externals
We start with a square area on the Rolls Royce Avon, but then expand our territory, since it's a rather rare visitor to our test cell. My apologies for being away ...
AgentJayZ; I noticed that on almost all the bolts used on this AVON engine
that there was a distinct lack of bolt lock wires in use, is there a
specific reason that RR does not use them on this engine? Love the videos I
have watched every one, keep it up they are great.
+AgentJayZ Hey Jay, just wondering are the bearings of the engine preloaded
with a torque value? Or are they set to have a minimal amount of free play?
Or can it be done either way dependant on the manufacturers specifications?
Thanks!
+AgentJayZ thanks for the reply! I was also wondering about one more thing. The stator assembly on the Orenda 14 uses the rings with multiple stator vanes attached to each section instead of using individual vanes that you install one at a time. I know in your video you siliconed the rings in the case to prevent vibration. In other videos you've mentioned the importance that all the blades and vanes in the engine have a small amount of movement so they don't vibrate and crack. Does the silicone in the Orenda's stator assembly eliminate the need for each vane to move independently? Or do the vanes in fact have some movement on the ring and it's just not noticeable in the video?
+Justin Hadden The roller bearings have no preload other than the weight of the shaft. The thrust bearing on each shaft, has an axial movement allowance, or clearance, or play of about .008" inch. There is no load on it other than the weight of the shaft when at rest.
Bleed here, bleed there - all the possible bleed air together, how much is
it compared to the total amount of air rushing through the engine? Does
this have any noticeable effect on the engine's power output when bleed
valves are opening / closing?
+Arne Seib The biggest use of bleed air is for anti-icing. When on the power of the engine is reduced by a couple of percent. For this reason there is a valve that turns it off when it isn't needed.
+AgentJayZ Thanks very much for answering. So if the rpm or air density change the pressure inside the combuster change? Or there is a system which maintains this pressure constant. i m sorry i m not expert in jet engines, just an atpl student who wants to know a little bit more :)
+Delta Alpha Pressure in the combustors is a result of CDP, which is dependant on engine rpm and ambient air density.
AirShow June 2012 Clip 14 (Saab 35 Draken Landing Close)
Wow, my eardrums just popped, I first expected it to fly a bit higher and then come the other way around to land on the landing strip. Nice with some close ...
Another comment (more coming), I used to control axial compressors in
refineries and one of our jobs was to avoid "surge", a situation you
described very well and I could understand it for the first time thanks to
your explanation. We were given the data of the "surge line" and if the
compressor ever went near that line our control system would open a bypass
valve feeding part of the outlet flow to the inlet pipe, thus increasing
flow through the compressor. That would be the function of the compressor
bleed valve in a jet engine, I guess. We were not allowed to bleed
flammable gases like hydrogen or natural gas to the atmosphere :).
By the way, the most widely used thread here in Argentina is Withworth. You
go to a hardware store and ask for a 1/4" UNC bolt and they will give you a
1/4 BSW (Withworth Coarse) saying "it's the same diameter and pitch". "Yes,
but the thread profile is different". Silence...
+Fernando Lichtschein We don't ever use coarse thread, and a 1/4 BS is 26 tpi, whereas 1/4 UNF is 28 tpi... just close enough for someone to be able to "crank it in" and ruin the threads.
Hi Jay, I know I am watching an older valve but in doing so it got me
thinking. I am wondering when jet engines go from flight engines to
industrial engines you do away with a lot of extra like wing deicing and
cabin bleed as well as many others. My question is by eliminating all this
bleed air and exhaust air before the power turbine, does this in turn
increase the available power (energy) of the engine? Would the compressor
give more pressure since none or less is being removed out of the path for
other uses?
Thanks Jay
Yes I understand about this video and you also did another video about all the different bleed air, and the two together had me thinking about more air, more compression and more power. So the rated HP you talk about when you doing an engine is that for industrial applications or flight aircraft applications? Also do you know approximately how much more HP you get by removing all that extra air loss?Thank you for your really fast reply last time, no need to go out of your way, when you get a chance is fine, you have a life long fan here.
+hommie789 Yes, all those aircraft uses for air are deleted, and it does increase engine efficiency. This video is about a starting bleed valve, and it is retained for industrial use.Also, many industrial engines retain the anti-ice capability, which remains switched off when not required.
The stabilizing valve at 3:10, is that included because the air flow
through the Compressor bleed valve is turbulent at the edges of the
rectangular openings and the whole moving structure could oscillate at some
point? Hence the stabilization valve is a damper( shock absorber) to these
oscillation I guess.
It is rather scaring to know how much those carbon sliders cost, as I am
not in the aircraft maintenance profession. Great detail, thank you,
+Carmel Pule' It's not a shock absorber. It just keeps everything in line by being the second of two supports. If the sliding grate was only positioned by one end, it would likely bend the actuator rod.
I think I've only seen you use a torque wrench once. At work, we do pumps
and gearboxes, and nearly every bolt has a torque. Do you do this off
camera or is it different for old engines?
For demonstrations on video, I speed things up by skipping a lot of details.Every fastener has a specific torque value, and use those values during assembly.
How does the engine determine when to close the bleed valves? You mention
it's hydraulic-mechanically controlled, but what controls that in the first
place? Thanks
The engine uses inlet air temp and engine rpm to determine mass airflow. How it uses that to actuate the bleed valves is a little bit of analog mechanical computing, and a little bit magic.Under no circumstances... even emergency...does the pilot have any control over bleed valve function.
Starter Ratchet : Turbine Engines - A Closer Look
Here is a quick look at the starter ratchet clutch from a Rolls Royce Avon. With some engines, the clutch is built into the starter. In the Avon, it's part of the engine's ...
Got it.. but after watching the video a few more times, if my understanding
is correct the ratchet piece at high rpm's doesn't touch the starter
housing, but doesn't it still spin with the main shaft of the engine? And
if so i would imagine that it rides on a bearing? and further aren't most
main bearings cooled in some way? i ask because i can imagine that if that
spins with the main shaft at such rpm's it will get quite hot and i don't
believe just air cooling would be enough? thanks..
I'm not Jay, but I think I can tell you that what you describe does not
actually happen, because the engine would have to rotate the opposite way
for the ratchet engaging "hard" (and driving) the toothed housing. With the
actual direction of rotation, the ratchet can just slip over the teeth, but
has no chance to engage. If you try to visualize in your mind the shape of
the two things and the direction of rotation, you will understand it
immediately! ;o) Cheers! :o)
Exactly...The starter is an air turbine. Running it backwards makes it a
horribly inefficient fan. Also, when you say suddenly engages... remember
it is engaging backwards. The centrifugally disengaged clutch loses speed
until the ratchet pawls begin slipping over the ramped teeth in the
housing. The pawls are spring loaded, and when driving the teeth in
reverse,,, at best can only slip over them, making a clattering noise but
transmitting very little torque.
Awesome, thanks Jay. I have a question about the control systems of your
test rig. How was the controller built to accommodate different engines
without driving the compressor into surge and preventing from over
temperature or over speed, as modern aero engines were equipped with FADEC
or something electronic controller. And how did you get so many old engines
into work, which have even old hydraulic/mechanical controllers? Thanks for
answering!
Thank you for this informational Video! I think i was one of the guys
asking the question at a LM1500 Test-Cell Video. The shutdown engine was
turning slower and slower, and at one point there was this rattling
starter-sound. I was wondering if the starter is always turning with the
engine. I love this kind of mechanical things, working only using
centrifugal force. Great, thank you!
Hi AgentJayZ, thanks for sharing the video. I have a quick question, when
the engine is coasting down the ratchet gear would engage again with the
toothed housing which is coupled to the starters shaft, cant that shear the
shaft of starter since it is at complete halt and suddenly engages with the
engine rotating at 2500rpm?
It is attached to the front of the main rotor, and is not supported by a
bearing. It just spins around, not touching anything. The front bearing is
near it, but it is very lightly loaded, and runs in a cold environment. If
anything the front bearing is heated by the oil sprayed on it.
... the whole point of this video is to show the mechanism that completely
disengages the starter after starting the engine... so... at takeoff rpm...
there is no contact whatsoever between the starter and the engine, and the
starter is not moving.
Thanks again for your posts ! Gas turbines are my favorite thing in the
world and I have read extensively on the subject. My problem is that I
rarely come across them so its great to get to visualize all the parts . Do
you have a favorite jet ?
I agree that a picture speaks best.. I can imagine that even though the
teeth recess in that housing, the temps must get pretty hot in there
especially when the engines at takeoff rpm? how is that bearing/housing
cooled? thx..
So why the difference in design with the clutch in the starter vs the other
way around. What are the pros and cons from the perspective of someone who
works with these, what would you with? Love your work!
Thanks for this Jay. A picture is worth a million words. I have heard you
describe the functionality of this assembly before, but until I actually
SAW how the teeth moved, I was still confused.
The solar Saturn! That's the one who's compressor core you previously had
characterized as being small like a house cat or something right? Haha or
maybe a shop kitty.... Lol.
From what I remember, our -60 startcarts in the Air Force were set up the
opposite way. I think the spring loaded teeth were on the starter side. Now
your making wonder.
It works in the opposite way. In a scooter, the faster it turns, the more
torque it transmits. And there is no ratchet in a centrifugal clutch, just
friction surfaces.
very nice and well said.. works similar to my rc engine with clutch
engagement.. hurray for centripetal force... do the theet get worn out
after a long time of use?
"driving the compressor into surge" ? ... sounds like you've got a
hollywood script in you. All the cool buzzwords, but sorry, this isn't a
coherent question.
However, I'm not so convinced it isn't a fake. There is no convincing
evidence of any heat behind the plane. No heat haze. The sound is also very
clean. Not that it matters; film makers often add sound to an image post
production - it's often cheaper, safer and easier to produce the required
effect. In this case the sound fits the image to produce the appearance of
a Hunter at startup. Weather that appearance is true or false is really
rather irrelevant. Hate 500 character limit ;-)
Thanks for your comment, this Hunter had an AVPIN starter fitted
originally, the AVPIN motor was a very small turbine. The AVPIN fuel, also
known as Iso Propyl Nitrate (IPN) is a monofuel that will burn without
oxygen, and is highly volatile. When combustion takes place it produces
Hydrocyanic Acid gas. The AVPIN starter was replaced with an Electric
starter which was used on Comets with their Avon engines. Canberras did
have cartridge starters and also the very early Hunters.
@grud66- So, when you say "it has electric start installed", you mean it
didn't originally use it? Did all Avon engines start with the
"triple-breech" cartridge starter originally? There's a cool video of a
Canberra with Avons starting up with the cordite charges...smokes like
crazy. I guess cartridges have just gone out of style...I've been looking
for footage of a Hellcat or any old plane starting with a cartridge, but
they'll all been converted to electric. =P
This Hunter (its a T7) has been altered from the Standard RAF T7 that I
knew. They used a 6 Lb shell (no war head???) to start (in a breach of 3) -
I was waiting to hear the woosh halfway through the crackers (the igniters
which are huge spark plugs) which is what I remember from my days on the
flight line. Still the best looking aircraft ever
Does the Hunter use a small turbine to spool the compressors, or is it
something else? I don't see any ground equiptment around, so I'd guess it
can fire itself up, right? I never liked the idea of a plane that can't
start it's own engine. Or one that needs a ladder or stair to get into, for
that matter!
Sweet sound of an Avon 200 series. I prefer the sight and sound of the 100
series in the T bird with cartridge start but seeing/hearing the 200 in a
Hunter brings back good memories. I used to ground run/test T7 and FGA9
aircraft at Wittering, the Hunter Wing in 1974-5 (45 & 58 squadrons).
@justforever96 If you want, this weekend I shot some nice footage of a
Hawker Hunter starting on a cartridge. It was a Hawker that participated on
the Sanicole Airshow in Belgium. It was the first time I saw that. Thought
the airplane was on fire...
@grud66 Well, to the public I think we can agree that jet engines use spark
plugs too. Just big ass hugely powerful sparkplugs that would easily kill a
human if someone would be stupid enough to touch it while it's operating...
I did notice bit wasn't sure. It could have been YTs compression making the
video look hazy. I still think the sound is too clean but that doesn't mean
the video's fake. Just had another look. You're probably right :-) Moose
@grud66 The Avpin tank in the upper fuselage of the Hunter was used only
for "Flame-outs" .On start up either a cartride or ground "wind-up" was
used! Pertaning to the smoke-filled start,that was a cartridge start!
isopropyl nitrate (rocket fuel) volitile and burns hot for fast
start..starter is a small turbine engine which burns i.p.n. (isopropyl
nitrate)hope this makes it easier to understand
Err no, He didn't walk in front of the air intake. He walked in front of
the nose of the aircraft and walked away before the engine reached idle.
Listen carefully to it.
Rolls Royce Spey-511 engine sounds for BAC 1-11 Release demo for FSX Soundpacks available in 5 different versions FSX - Flightdeck and external views ...
Hi, I'm having a slight issue with the 1-11 soundpack installed on my US
Air 1-11 I have tried this on another 1-11 variant how ever, there's no
change. The problem is, I still have the original engine sound which came
with the aircraft when I first installed it. Every time I throttle to
around 1/2 the engine sound changes to the new sound pack, and it will
continue to stay that way unless I throttle down to idle, or switch to VC
an back to the outside view. Any help please?
Personally, the BAC 1-11s were the noisiest aircraft I've ever encountered
taking off. The loudness of that twin-engine aircraft taking off was
extremely deafening.
I've never encountered a Concorde taking off. So, I'd be delighted to know
from anyone who has encountered the Concorde and the BAC 1-11 taking off
which of the two aircraft was more deafening to hear on takeoff.
emirates777er You will have to be more specific then what you mentionned
"when I try it on a different plane on fsx, the sound is not as good as
this", unless you installed my soundpack in David Maltby's BAC 1-11 sound
folder, then it will not work properly.
Thx EDDMAirportSpotter, the Tupolev sounds are still projects in progress
as they are incomplete, no time frame I'm affraid... I do these projects as
a hobby and when free time permits me...
I mean that I downloaded the sound pack, but then I put the sound file in
to a gulfstream ii on fsx. And where can I download David Maltby's sound
folder? Thanks
Santa Pod Scorpion Jet Car Good Run 4 May 1981 Andrew Hurdle was the driver. Designed and built by Bob and Roy Phelps, Allan Herridge, Mike Coburn and ...
Saw this jet car at Santapod at the weekend (11th July 2015) sadly in a bad
state,
//www.solent-renegades.co.uk/members/sarah-albums-dragstalgia-2015-a-picture54285-140.html
great to see this video and see the car run.