University of Strathclyde On Scottish Independence
On Monday UK PM David Cameron and First Minister for Scotland Alex Salmond struck a deal which could pave the way to the end of a 300 year old union ...
The heads of Yes Scotland and Better Together debate Scottish independence
Blair Jenkins and Blair McDougall debate Scottish Independence at the University of Dundee.
Its a maths question:
(Figures are sourced from the accounts published on the Scottish Executive
website)
59,388 million Scottish public sector spending plus identifiable
expenditure.
42,201 million Scottish public sector revenue (income tax, VAT etc).
5,931 Scottish million geographical oil revenue.
42,201 + 5,931 = 48,132 million
59,388 - 48,132 = 11,256 million shortfall
Trident costs 200 million per year.
Scotland cannot be a wealthy nation and be part of the EU. Wealthy nations
attract immigrants the effect would be to keep wages the same or lower and
cost public services. Independence means the pro Europe SNP stay in the EU
Scotland gets the Euro and gets financially raped like Ireland, Greece,
Cyprus, Spain, Portugal, Italy etc. Leaving the EU will also restore
Scotland's fishing industry. Scottish Nationalists want the opposite of
independence they are not entitled to a political opinion because their
opinions are based on ignorance of mathematics, accounting, common sense
and logic.
Dave, both sides acknowledge Scotland can make it financially. Personally I think it will shine in many ways when cut loose from Westminster. The world stage is perfectly set for a small nation with a strong cultural identity. It's a golden opportunity. Seize it.
+Dave Smith Thats complicating things?! lol Scotland is in a financially better position than the UK, as I've already said. There's nothing complicated about that. Sorry if you don't like the facts.You talk about financial viability and consequently point to Scotland's deficit as proof of its (apparent) inviability. Using that logic, the UK is in a far worse position, like I already said, as its deficit is much bigger!For the record, the notion of Scots paying more tax is simply referring to the calculations made when you divide the total revenue made by Scotland across its population, against the same figures for the UK. Not that I was even talking about that so I don't know why you brought it upYour views on socialism are your own and do not deny fact. There are plenty of countries that are far more left wing than the UK in a very strong financial position.
I think that's complicating things. I still think the best way to work out financial viability is to calculate the cost to run a country (public services) and revenue to pay for those services (tax) and currently it appears the shortfall to pay for these services is made up by the rest of the UK. Important to remember public services are paid for by the taxing the private sector. Alex Salmond says Scots pay more tax but that is from 'secondary tax consumers' that are in effect non taxpayers. SNP are very socialist they will increase the deficit.
You know that the UK deficit is still much bigger than Scotland's yeah? The UK had £92.3 bn deficit last year (6% of GDP) and Scotland had a £7.6bn (5% of GDP) last year. //www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2013/03/1859Further, Scotland has been in surplus for decades. In Thatcher and Major times (1979-1997), Scotland accumulated a £27bn surplus. Even in 2008, when the credit crunch was high, Scotland still had a £1.3bn surplus. Meanwhile, the UK hasn't been in surplus since 2001-02. So yes, Scotland has been in a deficit the last few years, but the UK has been in an even bigger deficit for much longer! Scotland is in a financially better position than the UK, it has been for decades, and even the No campaign can't deny that. Btw - yes, in terms of GDP per head, Scotland would've been the 6th richest nation in the world (above the UK) two years ago. The figures for last year show Scotland still to be the 8th richest in terms of GDP per head. Still higher than the UK. Fact.
+Lord Nelson Well Mr Nelson there are 28 countries in the European Union and only 17 of them are in the Euro currency for a start. So Great Britain use the pound and they are in the European union. No one has hate towards the English we are just sick of uninformed people telling us that we are not capable of running our own country. Simples
Scottish Independence Debate - Blair Jenkins and Blair McDougall
Debate on Scottish independence between Blair Jenkins, the chief executive of 'Yes Scotland', and Blair McDougall, the campaign director of 'Better Together'.
Sleep easy in your bed, and before you go tonod, remember this, you will never be a Englishman or a Scott, only a mixed Brit, keepyour self warm wrapped in you migrant flagon cold winter nights. For a man can only beborn by birthright as a Scott or Englishman.
Currency Union , Separate currency ? Euro , Groat , what piffle
Most Scots cant feed themselves or their families under this Westminster
warmongering Oligarchy !
Scots need passes for the Food Banks , Cheaper phone contracts , better
Sky packages and more money in their giro
Vote YES for Bread and Circuses
actually good anks are being used by people who are working theis currwnt set up has us being underpaid (all working class people) being free to decide what the minimum wage is is what will help people out of that.
+periurban I don't know if it gives me enjoyment, I can see positives for both sides, I just think mine has more, you obviously think the precise opposite but so long as neither of us resort to violence or other unreasonable means in pursuit of our goals I enjoy the discussions i've been seeing.
+periurban volume is not a pre-requisite of commitment or indeed truth, shouting falsehoods changes nothing. A wise man does not raise his voice, he improves his argument.
+periurban Jenkins is very articulate and persuasive , but he has no track record to defend , he is merely waving a wand , and talking snippets of facts from here and there , then saying "Scotland will be like this " ............................woosh .
The economic case for Scottish independence is unassailable, so I'd love to know how you believe McDougal won.
10 Reasons to Vote for Scottish Independence
Why Scotland cannot afford to miss the opportunity to break away from the United Kingdom in September 2014. Sources: 1.
‘How British is Scotland? Britain and Scottish Independence in the Middle Ages’
Dauvit Broun, Professor of Scottish History 'How British is Scotland? Britain and Scottish Independence in the Middle Ages' Scotland's identification with Britain ...
Scottish Independence Referendum, September 2014
In this podcast, Keith Dixon, honorary professor of British Studies at Lyon University, discusses with George Miller how the referendum on Scottish ...
The British Academy has a book available for download which I hope will
help me understand the reality of what may happen should Scotland separates
from Britain. I wish them both the best.
AYE WE CAN Say's Salmond We Can Keep the Pound - Scottish independence
Scottish independence (Scots: Scots unthirldom, Scottish Gaelic: Neo-eisimeileachd na h-Alba) is a political aim of some political parties, advocacy groups, and ...
All the people of Scotland should need to know is that when we are united,
the Scottish vote stands for nothing there are not enough of us to affect
any political vote in the UK, so our votes as it stands might aswell not be
cast. In an independent Scotland your vote will mean everything we in
Scotland will for the first time be able to vote for what we the Scottish
people think is best for our country. At the moment all taxes and revenue
from scotland are taken by Westminster and then a much smaller proportion
is given back to the Scottish society, Westminster decides for us it's a
blatant con. At the moment we are being ran by a Tory government, need I
say more, I could give u so many reasons for independence, the only thing
weve had to go against it is lies and bullshit from a very scared Tory
government. use ur heads people vote for independence it's in the interest
of the Scottish people not the rest of the UK and remember u are voting for
independence not Alex Salmond.
+kev540 Taxes and revenues are not by Westminster they are taken by the Scottish parliament. In fact English tax payers pay for Scottish school tuition fee and NHS and more. You are politically illiterate and are spewing the fed propaganda of the SNP.
+kev540 You got it all wrong Scotland has it's own parliament and elects its's own MPs's and the British people can't vote on Scottish legislation but the Scottish can vote on the English. That is unfair to the English people and Welsh.
Professor Adam Tomkins on the Legal Implications of Scottish Independence
Adam Tomkins, Professor of Public Law at the University of Glasgow, states in quite clear terms that if Scotland separates from the UK it becomes as a matter of ...
The prof of course is completely right, Scotland will be a former UK nation
if it votes Yes in September. Not going to happen of course because the
Scottish people are intelligent enough to see that what is on offer is a
huge backward step into the past, and the NO vote is all but guaranteed
following the gaining of a European seat via UKIP, the Scots want more
power, but they are not interested in becoming a backward thinking, grudge
and hate nation offered by the SNP. The sooner this nonsense is over the
better.
I'm not a lawyer but something strikes me that Prof. Tomkin's is not using
his legal knowledge unbiased.
At around 1 minute and 6 seconds to 1 minute and 12 seconds the presenter
asks if, post-yes, everything will be up to negotiation. He replies "No,
I'm afraid that's not right". But the Edinburgh agreement, when taken into
its full legal context, proves his conclusion incorrect. Everything will be
up for negotiation, but the success of those negotiations are entirely
speculative. I can guarantee I'll be proven correct in this if a yes vote
happens.
Around about 3 minutes or so I think the blonde haired man was made a
mockery of for bringing up international law. Whilst Prof. Tomkin's is
absolutely correct that it's national law which will take precedent over
the conduction of these negotiations, international law will take hold if
both governments don't come to a deal. That's why international law exists,
fairly simple.
Now this is the most important part of the speech, when looked at
analytically. At 3.55 to around 5.35 Prof. Tomkin's (and the other guy)
understand that the nuclear weapons will be negotiated post-yes. However,
Prof Tomkin's confirmed previously that, and I quote: "No, I'm afraid
that's not possible" ascertaining to the fact that everything will be up
for negotiation. So is he suggesting that nothing is up for negotiation
when it comes to the UK, but in Scotland's case everything will be?
Essentially, that's the vibe I'm getting. However I can't really take his
particular stance with any degree of intellectual seriousness because as
soon as bias creeps in then intelligence and objectivity is out of the
window.
The fact of the matter is many legal experts will be involved in the event
of Scottish independence and I'm hoping that bias will not obstruct reason.
Scottish taxpayers have shares in UK institutions, so for this legal expert
to say "we have no say" is just not correct. He knows this.
I'm an acolyte of the law when I know the law is balanced. In the case of
Prof. Tomkin's, I'm heartily disappointed given his credentials.
I'll have a read at this tomorrow and I appreciate the citation.I had heard Tomkin's speak in the Scottish parliament in front of a commission and the vibe I was getting from him was:"If you leave the UK, then you get nothing from the UK - negotiations will not take place as there is nothing to negotiate as it's all the UK's which Scotland has decided to leave".I think using an argument like that is entirely simplistic and has no bearing in real life. It's like the UK leaving the EU club and the EU saying: "No negotiations!". In real life, this evasiveness just doesn't happen.I'd like to think of myself pragmatic enough to know that post-Yes negotiations will take place. How they are conducted through a legal process though is not in my gift to address. Many legal experts will be involved in these negotiations, some of which will agree with Prof. Tomkin's and some who will disagree with prof. Tomkins. I agree with you that the SNP are not addressing certain fundamental questions and it's hard for people to make their mind up in this referendum debate - but Westminster has an infinitely higher track record of this in comparison and to be perfectly frank, I don't trust them. They do not represent me and I have the opportunity, democratically, to vote for something different from the status quo which is old fashioned, regressive and out of date.If I vote no, and the UK (yet again) goes to war with another middle eastern country as it continuously does - then I'll have blood on my hands. I think an independent Scotland is far less likely to do this.I'll repeat that, if I vote no - I can guarantee you that down the line in the near future they'll be yet another war with some middle eastern country, most likely backed with the USA in our "special relationship". We did it with Iraq, nearly with Syria and the trend will continue. That's all I have to say about that.I'll certainly give the citation you provided me a read. Regards,Luke.
I read some of it, but when it went into derogatory terms such as "Wee Eck", "Party of clowns" "brainwashed" and otherwise then I tend not to read - I skim.If a no vote does occur, then that's okay - the next time round another referendum will come, and then another, and another until Yes wins.
Quote Who is saying an independent Scotland is getting nothing, not me so I am not sure why your answered a question not raised by me.^ You wrote this.Quote if the vote was to dissolve the union (the club) then the assets and liabilities would be shared out, but this is not on offer.^ Then you wrote this, suggesting no negotiations will take place, period. However the assets and liabilities will be shared out, whether you believe it to be the case or not. It's a fact, sorry.If the UK keeps it's institutions then Scotland deserves its share back from the institutions it's no longer apart. In other words, Scotland can take its money back out of the institutions we're supposedly not allowed to use which would amount to an 8 - 11% reduction. destabilising these very same institutions. The rest of your discussion isn't relevant, i.e. financial disaster for Scotland, and the UK not being on good terms with a new competitor etc. It's actually very arrogant to predict what will, or will not happen, for certainty - try be more humble.
+Ena A Who is saying an independent Scotland is getting nothing, not me so I am not sure why your answered a question not raised by me. The analogy of Scotland leaving the UK with Divorce is a poor one, hence why I used the word club. As the prof says, the assets and liabilities would be negotiated, the pound though is not an asset in the conventional sense, it is a currency, a means of distributing equity, it is not equity itself. If, and it is a big if, Scotland votes to leave the UK, it will do so against the wishes of the rest of the UK. As a consequence it will take many many years to rebuild any form of relationship, the pragmatism you talk about will not be there for at least 5 to 10 years, this is the REAL politics, the sore feelings left over will poison the relationship. I can't see the rest of the UK wishing to have a cordial relationship with what will then be a competitor. With a left of centre Government in Scotland and probably a centre right Gov in the rest of the UK, Scotland will be slowly strangled financially by the bigger economy, which will only further sour the relationship. I hope for Scotland sake they don't commit financial suicide by voting yes in September.
But if Scotland decides to leave the club, where does it say in the legal process that the person leaving gets nothing whilst the other gets everything? By this logic actually, Scotland would not have to pay any of the debt, starting completely fresh. If you keep "everything" and Scotland keeps nothing, then you must also keep the debt, as that's included in "everything". A side note: If I divorce my wife, does that mean she gets everything and I get nothing through my choice of divorce? You would be laughed out of court with such a view, and quite rightly so.It matters not, if independence should occur it will be conducted pragmatically, not by the inane logic of "You get nothing, I get everything".
International law is not going to be involved in this issue, the UK is a club, and if Scotland votes to leave the club, the club still exist, minus one member, you don't have to be a professor of law to understand this. If the entire UK was voting on the issue, whether to stay together as a club then that would be different, if the vote was to dissolve the union (the club) then the assets and liabilities would be shared out, but this is not on offer.
Well said, when Ireland left to become the Republic of Ireland, it chose to
leave the UK and therefore the UK retained all its financial institutions
including the BoE. Why should it be any different for Scotland?
Ireland got its share worth out of the bank back. But the overall institution, which is the bank, belongs to the UK.In law, there's a difference between institutions, assets, shares and liabilities. People make the mistake that the person who keeps the institution also keeps everyone's shares. That would be theft.